Many of my relatives are good Christians, good people, and very conservative. I'm trying to figure out ways to talk to them. I'm hoping sharing my attempt might be useful to others, and that others might have some useful ideas.
I feel it's really important right now is to find common ground, unless we truly believe that we want the U.S. to split up. Last time I talked to my grandpa I realized we were completely talking past each other, and that I had to be compassionate, pragmatic, and understand first.
Yesterday I spent some of my time trying to figure out the real worries on the pro-ban-pro-wall side (easy way to find the arguments - just check comments on your senator’s page!), and then thought about how I would talk to my grandpa about them. The last conversation about immigration I had did not go well. So, try 2:
1. Terrorist attacks are happening all over Europe, and we don't want that happening in the U.S.
There is fear out there and it doesn't do any good to belittle it. The attacks in France and Belgium have been scary for me too, and what is more scary is how random they are, like on boardwalks and in concert halls. I’ve thought twice about visiting Europe these days. I've even thought about feeling unsafe at large venues.
But what I've been considering lately is: how do we divorce that fear from refugees? The refugee process is crazy detailed, it's a 20-step process that takes well over a year, and literally none of the terror attacks that have occurred in the U.S. have been done by refugees.
We are letting in a tiny, tiny portion of the Middle East refugees that Europe is, and we have a very, very large ocean as a natural barrier, so it’s not like any are sneaking in. And the refugees are afraid of the same violence we are! That’s why they’re trying to leave! Shout-out to This American Life’s (TAL) tour of a Greek refugee camp (it’s a two-part series), it’s a great listen and a way to practice compassionate understanding.
Canada's refugee process used to prioritize families (I think it still does?) and I do like that approach, at least for finding common ground. Hopefully we can all agree that kids deserve not to have their future shot in the foot by growing up in a refugee camp with no access to education, or living in a place with constant bombing or (literally) female enslavement. The larger underpinning of: we don't need to worry about the rest of the world... well that's a little harder for me, but there are some easy New Testament verses that I could probably prepare here about helping the least fortunate among us. Or I could quote the Pope! To be Christian is to help others.
2. We need to clamp down on illegal immigration. [said in various kind/unkind forms]
Reminder: refugees are not illegal immigrants. And we don't mind legal immigrants, right? We were all immigrants not that many generations ago, right?
I feel it's really important right now is to find common ground, unless we truly believe that we want the U.S. to split up. Last time I talked to my grandpa I realized we were completely talking past each other, and that I had to be compassionate, pragmatic, and understand first.
Yesterday I spent some of my time trying to figure out the real worries on the pro-ban-pro-wall side (easy way to find the arguments - just check comments on your senator’s page!), and then thought about how I would talk to my grandpa about them. The last conversation about immigration I had did not go well. So, try 2:
1. Terrorist attacks are happening all over Europe, and we don't want that happening in the U.S.
There is fear out there and it doesn't do any good to belittle it. The attacks in France and Belgium have been scary for me too, and what is more scary is how random they are, like on boardwalks and in concert halls. I’ve thought twice about visiting Europe these days. I've even thought about feeling unsafe at large venues.
But what I've been considering lately is: how do we divorce that fear from refugees? The refugee process is crazy detailed, it's a 20-step process that takes well over a year, and literally none of the terror attacks that have occurred in the U.S. have been done by refugees.
We are letting in a tiny, tiny portion of the Middle East refugees that Europe is, and we have a very, very large ocean as a natural barrier, so it’s not like any are sneaking in. And the refugees are afraid of the same violence we are! That’s why they’re trying to leave! Shout-out to This American Life’s (TAL) tour of a Greek refugee camp (it’s a two-part series), it’s a great listen and a way to practice compassionate understanding.
Canada's refugee process used to prioritize families (I think it still does?) and I do like that approach, at least for finding common ground. Hopefully we can all agree that kids deserve not to have their future shot in the foot by growing up in a refugee camp with no access to education, or living in a place with constant bombing or (literally) female enslavement. The larger underpinning of: we don't need to worry about the rest of the world... well that's a little harder for me, but there are some easy New Testament verses that I could probably prepare here about helping the least fortunate among us. Or I could quote the Pope! To be Christian is to help others.
2. We need to clamp down on illegal immigration. [said in various kind/unkind forms]
Reminder: refugees are not illegal immigrants. And we don't mind legal immigrants, right? We were all immigrants not that many generations ago, right?
Moving on to the wall, I think I’ve had a harder time pinpointing the exact fears about illegal immigration. Is the fear that they’re stealing jobs? Or that they’re bringing crime to the U.S.? Or that they’re flooding our country with too many people and freeloading on the system? Maybe it’s just as simple as people want the rules to be followed. The recent podcast on the Border Patrol by TAL seemed to indicate that for the border police, they just don’t like that the current process is crap and that people get away with not following the rules. I get that. My grandpa thought that Mexico was sending its criminals over the border - but he did work at a restaurant where he also said the Mexican immigrants were very nice and hard working.
My approach last time when talking about this with my grandpa was to say: just try to remember why they came here, or ask them that. They will probably say they came here to make a better life for their family, just like our relatives did too. There's a starting point for common ground and (Christ-like!) compassion and understanding. We can be compassionate first. They didn’t come here to like, commit crime. Committing crime is certainly easier to do in Central America than here, one would point out.
There's probably an important discussion here that a ban on Middle East refugees does not help illegal immigration (remember refugees != illegal immigrants), and a wall might not either. See the TAL episode again, where the Border Police put up a wall and then found a bunch of 18-foot ladders...
But back to the idea of opposing illegal immigration, I get stuck here. There have been studies that illegal immigrants do not affect the wages of American workers, they don't get welfare benefits, many pay taxes. But listing facts hasn't really worked for me when talking to relatives, because there are always other facts these days.
Maybe the right approach is to say: sure we can agree on taking steps towards legal immigration, but a wall isn't the way to do it? And then point out the approach of neighboring countries like Canada, where there are more options to regularize status. If the fear is: no taxes, freeloading, stealing jobs, I'd say I'd agree with clamping down on illegal immigration but just challenge the method; if it was easier to become legal we would reduce illegal immigration.
There's probably an important discussion here that a ban on Middle East refugees does not help illegal immigration (remember refugees != illegal immigrants), and a wall might not either. See the TAL episode again, where the Border Police put up a wall and then found a bunch of 18-foot ladders...
But back to the idea of opposing illegal immigration, I get stuck here. There have been studies that illegal immigrants do not affect the wages of American workers, they don't get welfare benefits, many pay taxes. But listing facts hasn't really worked for me when talking to relatives, because there are always other facts these days.
Maybe the right approach is to say: sure we can agree on taking steps towards legal immigration, but a wall isn't the way to do it? And then point out the approach of neighboring countries like Canada, where there are more options to regularize status. If the fear is: no taxes, freeloading, stealing jobs, I'd say I'd agree with clamping down on illegal immigration but just challenge the method; if it was easier to become legal we would reduce illegal immigration.
3. [from my grandpa] Muslims came in and took over some of the schools, they didn’t work hard at the factory, and they trained terrorists right down the street from me. [insert any other negative interaction]
Yikes. This is from a real convo with my grandpa and is legit, kind of. I saw something similar all over Facebook. Some of the 9-11 hijackers came from close to where my grandparents live in Minnesota. And basically it sucks that the interactions he’s had with the Somalian refugees in Minnesota have been largely negative. Europe is grappling with this too: the cultural barriers are big, especially when it comes to attitudes towards women; Norway is basically offering lessons on it.
I feel like at least part of this is - these people look different and act different than me. Grandpa complained about them speaking in their own language to each other (they should "become american"), but I reminded him that I have a significant other who speaks a foreign language frequently and he doesn’t have a problem with that.
I suppose the right thing to say here would have been: don’t let x interaction color your view of all people from an area; get to know them. Other ideas welcome. I wish there was a way to encourage everyone to interact with people who are different than you. That’s something I can work on too - shout out to Tutoring Plus in Boston, where we used to tutor a lot of first-generation immigrants and I was always learning something.
It just might be a general goal for everyone is to try interacting with other groups of people than those they're comfortable with. Even just listening to other people’s stories - I buy my grandparents books for birthdays and holidays, can I buy them something like Americanah (immigrant tale) or some other casual read with another purpose? How do we get everyone to think about the fact that we're not all that different; that we have the same goals?
It just might be a general goal for everyone is to try interacting with other groups of people than those they're comfortable with. Even just listening to other people’s stories - I buy my grandparents books for birthdays and holidays, can I buy them something like Americanah (immigrant tale) or some other casual read with another purpose? How do we get everyone to think about the fact that we're not all that different; that we have the same goals?
4. Islam as a religion is naturally violent.
So, actually, I think there are people on both sides that think that we should just leave the Middle East to war it out. My liberal father isn’t far from that view. I usually counter with the idea that there are millions of people practicing peaceful Islam, and that no one wants their group to be judged based on the most extreme faction. For instance, no Christians want all Christians to be stereotyped based on the Westboro Baptist's Church's actions, right?
My grandpa is a super good person and strong Christian. So mainly I try to appeal to his moral code, which is true and good. A he-said she-said approach really hasn't got me anywhere ("Mexico is sending their criminals" "No they're not" etc.). I think another approach is encouraging him/others to learn and listen to other people's stories, but I'd love to hear other people who have tackled similar conversations.
